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KATHY GILL

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Writer, Political Junkie, Educator
Articles Posted: 294  Links Seeded: 246
Member Since: 1/2006  Last Seen: 5/16/2012

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"We Could Not Have Known..."

Wed Sep 1, 2010 2:26 AM EDT
politics, iraq, iraq-war
By Kathy Gill
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Writing about the U.S. invasion of Iraq in The New York Times, John Burns asserts:

[T]here were few, if any, who foresaw the extent of the violence that would follow or the political convulsion it would cause in Iraq, America and elsewhere.

We could not know then ... the scale of the toll the invasion would unleash: the tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians who would die; the nearly 4,500 American soldiers who would be killed; the nearly 35,000 soldiers who would return home wounded; the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who would flee abroad as refugees; the $750 billion in direct war costs that would burden the United States; the bitterness that would seep into American politics; the anti-Americanism that would become a commonplace around the world.

Bull Hockey.

Burns was a principal reporter for the NYT in 2002 and 2003 in the run-up to the war. A run-up that was accompanied by mainstream media cheerleading. A run-up that later would lead the editors to publish a "mea culpa" in 2004. Ditto Howard Kurtz at the Washington Post.

Glenn Greenwald takes Burns et al to task, with excerpts from speeches from Howard Dean and Jim Webb.

Even more to the point: not-yet Vice President Cheney said as much in 1994 when he explained why Bush-the-elder didn't try to take Baghdad (he uses the adjective "quagmire" in this C-SPAN clip).

Recall that popular opinion in the U.S. was split if President Bush invaded Iraq without UN Security Council support. I'm not one to wave the flag of popular opinion as always being the way leaders should lead (see my posts about the Islamic community center in New York, for example). But. Still.

For example, World Public Opinion reported in 2003 that 6-in-10 Americans believed one of three false memes: 48% incorrectly believed there was evidence of links between Iraq and al Qaeda; 22% incorrectly believed that weapons of mass destruction had been found in Iraq; and 25% incorrectly believed that world public opinion favored the US going to war with Iraq. The more "misperceptions" held the more likely the support for invasion. (Note: the slight majority who supported a discretionary war was wrong then and they're wrong about NYC, too, both legally and morally.)

How could so many be so poorly informed?

TV news stands as a culprit. Of the almost 10,000 people surveyed, 8-in-10 FOX News viewers, 7-in-10 CBS News viewers and 6-in-10 ABC news viewers believed at least one of these falsehoods. Print media did only a little better: 1-in-2. Conversely, only 2-in-10 of those who said that they got their news from NPR/PBS were misinformed.

I opposed the invasion. I joined other protesters in Seattle, the first protest in my life. We still have a "No Iraq War" sign in a window of our home. We were not alone:

[T]he people and organizations who tried to prevent this "preventive" war included the United Nations; people of faith (Muslims, Christians, and Jews); the governments of France, Germany, Russia, China; the Islamic Conference (including Indonesia, the most populated Muslim nation); the Organization of American States; the Arab League; the Organization of African Unity; former President Jimmy Carter; Pope John Paul; 133 members of the U.S. Congress; 10 to 15 million people who took to the streets for peace all over the world on February 15, 2003; Senator Robert Byrd (who articulated a critique of Bush's war aims on Constitutional grounds); a half dozen intelligence analysts and career civil servants from the State Department and CIA who either resigned or spoke out against this course; and many others.

We could have known. We chose not to. Fighting -- striking back at a fabricated threat -- simply felt better than looking in the mirror to try to understand why 9-11 might have happened.

Finally, Greenwald doesn't connect the dots between Vietnam and Afghanistan, which is being ignored in this symbolic and meaningless, as far as fighting a discretionary war is concerned, milestone. In both endeavors, we ignored history: the French in the case of Vietnam and the Soviet Union in the case of Afghanistan. In addition to leaving behind a tattered nation, we are, ourselves, in economic tatters. One way or another (via taxes or debt), we will be paying (trillions of dollars in direct and indirect costs) for this latest bit of hubris for decades.

We should have known.

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Kathy Gill

Also at TMV.

I was trying to not write about this. But this meme needs to be put dead in its tracks.

  • 11 votes
Reply#1 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 2:27 AM EDT
NavChief57

Kathy - very well written and very true. Kudos!

  • 8 votes
#1.1 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 5:28 AM EDT
Jo.XRN.

Chief. Good morning my heart throb:) sent you a mail

yes I agree, it's nice to see the odd nugget of gold on the vine, overdue I would say.

  • 5 votes
#1.2 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 5:45 AM EDT
ERich-356044

We could have known. We chose not to. Fighting -- striking back at a fabricated threat -- simply felt better than looking in the mirror to try to understand why 9-11 might have happened.

Bravo! Well said and very true.

  • 4 votes
#1.3 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 8:24 AM EDT
CCArm

Cathy,

Thank you for the article. We cannot allow the rewriting of history about the Iraq war. We need to remember the reasons given us to invade Iraq did not hold water and that the execution of the invasion was worse than the decision to do it in the first place.

Arrogance and honor are not valid reasons for war.

  • 4 votes
#1.4 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 10:18 AM EDT
Steve Rosenberger

Imagine their surprise when the sun rises each morning... Who knew?!

Great article, Kathy.

  • 4 votes
#1.5 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 3:10 PM EDT
NavChief57

Awe Jo, Mongo blushing!

  • 3 votes
#1.6 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 7:24 PM EDT
JAVE

T]here were few, if any, who foresaw the extent of the violence that would follow or the political convulsion it would cause in Iraq, America and elsewhere

Anyone with a basic understanding of geo-politics, a victim of war, those with family members that know war or one who has served in combat all likely had a mostly accurate guess of what was in store.

  • 3 votes
#1.7 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 12:17 AM EDT
Ben-1268009

We should have known.

Many did know, and tried to warn the rest of us... but blinded by our ignorance brought to us by the media, we didn't believe them... and it was unto our own destruction that we did not.

  • 2 votes
#1.8 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 2:03 AM EDT
Kathy Gill

Thanks, Ben.

  • 1 vote
#1.9 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 2:25 AM EDT
Reply
Brite

Kathy,

VERY well written. And I agree, wholeheartedly. As a vet and as an Army wife, I support these military folk. I can do nothing else. But as a thinking human being... I can't support the wars that our former Commander in Chief has started.

  • 7 votes
Reply#2 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 2:44 AM EDT
Kathy Gill

Thank you. Despite my opposition to the invasion, once we were there I was of the "we broke it, we have to fix it" mindset for a while. And I've always supported the men and women we have sent to the Middle East, some of whom have been my family and friends.

But what do we have to show for these seven years of nation-building under false pretenses? Nothing positive, and a whole lot negative.

  • 7 votes
#2.1 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 2:52 AM EDT
LasVegasRocks

I agree, well written.

When I protested the war in NYC, I was physically attacked because the attacker firmly believed everything spoon fed to him by the administration and the media. I believe the media is almost as much to blame as the previous administration - almost, because they refused to ask the very questions that could have kept us from going to war based on the blatant lies offered by the administration.

  • 6 votes
#2.2 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 3:58 AM EDT
Ripley8

If I could keep voting this up I would.

  • 3 votes
#2.3 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 4:34 AM EDT
ERich-356044

((((Brite))))

Hugs to you my friend! I agree with you... as much as I hated the wars, I have so much admiration and respect for our servicemen and women. I support our troops, but hate the wars.

  • 1 vote
#2.4 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 8:25 AM EDT
JAVE

I can't support the wars that our former Commander in Chief has started.

Not many can. Do you really think the Republican, Tea Partier, Right Wing, Christian folks from the Podunk states were really as Gung-Ho as the Left wishes to believe of them? If they gave up on our wars now the Left would just call them racist and claim that after 10 years of their kids being killed they were only doing it to spite Obama.

The only real world issue is what our current Commander in Chief is doing to lead us to Victory. President Obama is halfway through his term. Americans clearly stated Bush owned September 11th. Everyone knew he did not own the path to that event, but we all knew he owned the attack.

If we wanted G.W. Bush as the benchmark of a President we would of voted for McCain.

  • 2 votes
#2.5 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 12:28 AM EDT
Reply
Synthesis

Conversely, only 2-in-10 of those who said that they got their news from NPR/PBS were misinformed.

A very succint indictment of our corporatist mass media, in my view.

  • 5 votes
Reply#3 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 2:53 AM EDT
Kathy Gill

I agree. Would love to have seen The Daily Show listeners included as a sample.

  • 6 votes
#3.1 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 3:01 AM EDT
Synthesis

Thanks for this article. It was a very cogent analysis in my view, and refreshingly free of the histrionics we so often see.

I hope you can keep the thread on the same level, although given the degree of polarization we are currently seeing - both on Newsvine and in the body politic at large - I suspect you are going to have your challenges.

Thanks in advance, though.

  • 4 votes
#3.2 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 3:04 AM EDT
Reply
Marshall James

Very good article

we really need to look at our government...that is democrats and republicans and what they do.

our foreign policy doesnt change from administration to administration...just because someone says something different to a camera does not mean different foreign policy....telling the media different things does not mean a different foreign policy. keeping all 700 bases in 130 countries is not a different foreign policy. policing the world is not a different foreign policy....nation building and building our empire worldwide is not a different foreign policy.

our government has not declared war since ww2. all the wars since then have been illegal. only ron paul brings this up constantly people.

think.

  • 5 votes
Reply#4 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 3:45 AM EDT
Lisafrequency

only ron paul brings this up constantly people.

yep

  • 2 votes
Reply#5 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 6:53 AM EDT
Luther28

I hate to be redundant as I have stated this in previous comments, but perhaps some of this can be attributed to the 33% illiteracy (functional at least) rate in this Country, partially to the mainstream medias lack of investigative abilities and the willingness of individuals to believe whatever they hear in a sound bite. Murrow is rolling in his grave over what passes for reporting today.

  • 7 votes
Reply#6 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 6:54 AM EDT
Lisafrequency

what has journalism done for us lately? They are just pawns of Big Corp now.

  • 4 votes
#6.1 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 8:55 AM EDT
Synthesis

They are just pawns of Big Corp now.

I would say most - even the majority. But not all.

  • 1 vote
#6.2 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 5:58 PM EDT
JAVE

but perhaps some of this can be attributed to the 33% illiteracy (functional at least) rate in this Country,

I don't think that is the fault of public education. At least the conservative kids are home skooled and keep out of those stats. Could you imagine what it would be then?

  • 3 votes
#6.3 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 1:48 AM EDT
Reply
Augur Well

Very good synopsis of history, Kathy.

Yet, my biggest fear, will "we" learn from this latest nugget of history in the future? "We" defined and directed more at the next politician or group thereof, or administration, who continually believe wars can be directed by those same politicians and won from the Situation Room and Press Rooms in the White House. No "war" has ever been won in this manner, and I respectfully submit the last time this wasn't the prevailing political dogma was 1939 - 1945.

Funny how pretty much the entire rest of the civilized world has such a divergent view, and reported of, this latest debacle, than what and how its reported here in this country.

I completely concur with Luther, Murrow is spinning in his grave.

  • 3 votes
Reply#7 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 7:32 AM EDT
obie-one

It was a coin toss to me as I didn't trust President Bush but what he presented was viable. However once Saddam was caged it should have been game over. It's too easy to get the complacent whipped up into a patriotic frenzy as those that never see the battlefield have a need to be able to show support , i.e. if I can't pull the trigger then at least I can make sure the trigger is pulled. President Bush , Sarah Palin, Glen Beck all use the same tactic to create a gathering and once a collective emotional tide is manifested people easily loose sight of what goes on outside of the circle. People used to be too busy with seeking happiness to even stop to look at the big picture it was someone elses problem but what has evolved from this senseless war in cost is still being overlooked with the same ploy that allowed it to begin in the first place as we are now too miserable and afraid to stop and look at the overall view. The real enemy walks amongst us freely , our inability to see through this and remain divided. We choose to allow our attention to be directed away from the real problem and the existing cures by following people who all too well know how to manipulate this technique and it doesn't take a lot of brains or actual charisma to succeed just a blided eye ,lack of hope and a large enough circle.....

  • 3 votes
Reply#8 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 7:42 AM EDT
etva

Fighting -- striking back at a fabricated threat -- simply felt better than looking in the mirror to try to understand why 9-11 might have happened.

Well said and I enjoyed your article. We could also solve many of our domestic problems if we spent some time contemplating that mirror.

  • 7 votes
Reply#9 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 7:50 AM EDT
fromadistance

This invasion caused many a heated argument between my husband, a Vien Nam vet, and me. At the time he believed that Colin Powell would never mislead the American people. I disagreed. So when my husband realized that he had been lied to by the only military officer he had faith in, he was devastated. I think a lot of ex military supported the invasion of Iraq because of Powell. Unfortunately, most of them couldn't bring themselves to renounce Powell and the rest of the Administration once the lies were unmasked.

The thing I found most troubling about the media was that there was never direct refutation of the many lies and contradictions once they became apparent. For example, the neo-cons constantly stated that the American people and the Congress actively supported the war initially. But that is because they were lied to. And then again, once it was admitted there were no WMD's we continued because Saddam was a ruthless dictator. Well, I don't think the American people would ever have supported a war to over throw a dictator.

Last of all, regardless of the cost to the USA, the devastation we have inflicted on the both Iraq and Afghanistan will have far reaching negative consequesces that will take decades to be dealt with, if ever. G-d help us but we will be attacked again and this time the world will respond as Dick Cheney once did..."So?"

  • 5 votes
Reply#10 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 8:51 AM EDT
Synthesis

Poor Colin.

I think he was trying to be a 'good soldier'....and chose unwisely.

  • 2 votes
#10.1 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 5:59 PM EDT
Kathy Gill

I agree about Colin Powell. And he, not Barack Obama, should have been the first man of color to run for President. IMO.

  • 3 votes
#10.2 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 7:06 PM EDT
Synthesis

I think he could have been, had he not accepted the service of Secretary of State. It proved his undoing, sadly.

  • 2 votes
#10.3 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 8:07 PM EDT
Steve Rosenberger

@Kathy & Syn:

Powell is obviously a man of great accomplishment. But his stupendous lack of judgment and blind loyalty to a leader he knew to be seriously flawed are two compelling reasons to be relieved he did not grab the golden Presidential ring when it was within his grasp.

  • 2 votes
#10.4 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 8:29 PM EDT
Synthesis

Possibly. It's a bit hypothetical now, though.

  • 1 vote
#10.5 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 8:41 PM EDT
Reply
oldfogey

And President Obama has helped to continue the myth by letting bush off the hook in his Iraq departure speech. What is it going to take to get this President to return to the path he promised in his campaign? I don't want to look back but I do want to look where we are going so we don't step in any piles of crap left by previous administrations. It appears to me that Obama has bought the military/industrial complex in its entirety.

Thanks, Kathy Gill, for your insight and courage.

  • 4 votes
Reply#11 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 9:09 AM EDT
Lisafrequency

What is it going to take to get this President to return to the path he promised in his campaign

Do you really believe he was ever on any path but the one he is on right now?

  • 2 votes
#11.1 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 9:19 AM EDT
Marshall James

lisa

agree i find it amusing that democrats think that they have a different foreign policy than the republicans....just because they are lied to they believe it I guess, but of course history is proof...and well...the status quo keeps on.

  • 2 votes
#11.2 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 10:49 AM EDT
Synthesis

I think it is different.

Not much better, mind you, but somewhat different.

  • 1 vote
#11.3 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 6:01 PM EDT
Lisafrequency

The thing that both policies have in common is we are still over there minding some other countries business.

  • 2 votes
#11.4 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 4:08 AM EDT
Kathy Gill

Exactly. :-/

  • 1 vote
#11.5 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 4:47 AM EDT
Reply
xinxinDeleted
TheyreAllCrooks

George Dubya Bush is a liar and a murdering Neo-Con puppet - he belongs in prison.

He allowed himself to be used by the likes of Richard Perle, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfowitz, etc - all Neo-Con glory seeking, freedom speading murderers.

The Iraqi War was a foregone conclusion even before Bush took office. For months during the campaign there was plenty of talk about "nation building" and you would have to be an idiot to think they were talking about any other country except Iraq!

Neo-Cons have long wanted to create a democracy in the meddle east so they could "spread freedom". Iraq was the perfect target - after all it was the US that armed Iraq - we knew exactly what they did and did NOT have.

There were no WMD (Bush knew that). There was no connection between Sadaam Hussein and Al Quaeda (Bush knew that). There was no looming threat of "mushroom clouds over American cities" (Bush knew that). There was no terrorism in Iraq - until we in fact created terrorism in Iraq!

Bush claiming that "Bill Clinton also said they had WMD" is no excuse. Clinton was also smart enough to know that they weren't a real threat to us.

Many of us kept telling you Republicans that Bush was going to start a needless war - but you elected him anyway, and now many of you are screaming about runaway spending as if that is more important than the lives of 4500 dead US soldiers, thousands more maimed for life and the havoc caused to their families - not to mention the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqi's killed because of our invasion - and hate that this war has created toward our country.

Why should we trust you or any of these Tea Party nuts again?

This war had nothing to do with "keeping America safe" or "the war on terror". This was a complet and total violation of everything America stands for.

The Dick Cheney said in 2009, shortly after leaving his secret undisclosed location, "we have accomplished what we set out to do, to create a democracy in the heart of the middle east, and that is a big deal, and that is exactly what we have done".

WMD my ass!

If ever a US President and VP and Sec'y of Defense and Sec'y of State ALL belonged in prison - these are they.

  • 4 votes
Reply#13 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 10:02 AM EDT
Lisafrequency

No doubt Bush was an idiot. The thing is there is a power other than the President in control of world affairs. They tell the president what to do. This power does not care who they step on. We can deny it all we want but this power is taking us where we are going.

The people in the USA are starting to question what is going on. Ask the Europeans, The masses here are pretty much awake now.

I wonder if the media will ever fess up?

  • 4 votes
#13.1 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 10:35 AM EDT
Reply
Kathy Gill

Wow. Thank you all. I appreciate the fact that something that struck a chord with me resonated with y'all.

AFA Obama is concerned ... he "opposed" Iraq when running for office because it made political sense for the district he was in. His Presidential campaign, as others have pointed out, made it clear that he believed we needed to expand forces in Afghanistan. He is, thus, being consistent.

The two dominant parties have far more in common than we want to believe, especially when it comes to remaining part of the power elite of the country. IMO the Tea Party folks have a few valid points but they are overruled by craziness on the social side of government. I don't know that it is possible to derail the entrenched power held by Ds and Rs. :-/

I don't think we can put all of the blame on post-Reagan media consolidation. Look no further than Hearst and Cuba and the Spanish-American War. :-/

Finally ... heartfelt thanks to both NV and TMV for helping me find my voice.

  • 6 votes
Reply#14 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 3:31 PM EDT
NavChief57

Kathy - basically this country is run by big business, always has been and probably always will be. Even if someone came forwrd with proof positive that what we speculate and rant about were absolutely true, what would really be done about it? I mean it is like these conspiricy theory TV shows, if someone actually gets close enough to do some damage they just disappear. Doesn't matter who you are, doesn't matter if you have a family or not, you are just gone, they have the money, connections and we are just a piece of lint on their oh so expensive beyond designer suits, they scrape us off and buy a new one. How the hell do you fight that kind of money and attitude?

  • 6 votes
#14.1 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 7:34 PM EDT
Kathy Gill

Hi, NavChief57 -- I feel your pessimism. I'm looking at the history of public education and am not happy with turn of the 20th century rhetoric about why it was needed (to create compliant consumers and a compliant labor force).

  • 4 votes
#14.2 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 11:44 PM EDT
Reply
Seth-1600355

Kathy: Kudos. I especially loved the Bull Hockey at the end. One of my grandmothers favorite euphemisms. I have always been heart sick about the runup to the invasion and still am perplexed about our inability to have a clear and honest conclusion about this, even with all the evidence that this was a horrible debacle. One of the things that is most perplexing to me is the duplicity of the white house in the ruse perpetrated on the American people. From handfeeding false information to news organizations, having Colin Powell testify before the UN that the intelligence was solid, to the outing of Valerie Plame as a CIA agent, because her husband questioned the validity of the information. Have we become impotent to seek justice, or is the minions that are the warmongers truly in control. I know that President Obama is trying not to exacerbate the divide already present in out political discourse. But is this the best we can do when our leaders went so horribly astray with our public trust. Here in NC we put legislators in jail for misappropriating public funds. I recently watched the movie Green Zone, it is based on the events experienced by a unit of soldiers searching for WMD's after the fall of Bagdad. It is very telling.

  • 1 vote
Reply#15 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 5:20 PM EDT
Kathy Gill

Thanks, Seth. I hail from south Georgia, and I got that saying from my mom. :-)

A clear and honest assessment of this discretionary war is unlikely for at least another 10 years, if history is a guide. :-/

  • 2 votes
#15.1 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 5:25 PM EDT
Augur Well

Here in NC we put legislators in jail for misappropriating public funds.

Same here, Seth. 34 and still counting in the stupidest county corruption fiasco that's been festering for a long time coming. True story too, that 34. Either plead guilty already or currently in a room with a very tiny view. And the FBI is long from finishing up either.

  • 3 votes
#15.2 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 5:44 PM EDT
Seth-1600355

Alas, "Justice delayed is justice denied".

  • 2 votes
#15.3 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 6:01 PM EDT
Steve Rosenberger

A clear and honest assessment of this discretionary war is unlikely for at least another 10 years, if history is a guide. :-/

...and if there are another 10 years.

  • 2 votes
#15.4 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 8:31 PM EDT
Kathy Gill

Ok, Steve, that's a new level of pessimism. :-/

  • 1 vote
#15.5 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 11:45 PM EDT
Reply
Kathy Gill

Update: A Tiny Revolution challenges the "facts" in that excerpt I posted:

I suppose that if you're feeling generous, you could give John Burns "the tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians who would die." According to Iraq Body Count, the number of dead Iraqi civilians is 97,000-106,000. Of course, the number is surely higher, given IBC's methodology. And in any case it's sketchy to call 100,000 "tens of thousands." But as I say, let's be generous.

As far as "hundreds of thousands" of refugees ...

According to the UN, there are currently 1.8 million Iraqi refugees outside the country. (There are also 1.5 million people displaced from their homes but still in Iraq.).

nd John Burns wouldn't have to go to the effort of visiting the UN website to find this out. He could have just read the New York Times in 2007, when he was the Baghdad bureau chief:

.

..an estimated 2 million...have fled Iraq..

.

  • 5 votes
Reply#16 - Wed Sep 1, 2010 5:28 PM EDT
JAVE

an estimated 2 million...have fled Iraq..

We are Americans. How many have came to the USA? Are they refugees?

    #16.1 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 1:52 AM EDT
    Reply
    Jean-Baptiste Perrin

    I would like to chime in on the comments about literacy and education. In Europe, despite the relative lower level of our universities, most if not all citizens receive a very decent basic education, including solid basis in History, geography, literature, culture, politics and what the French call "civic education". More importantly, in most Western European countries, teachers and professors keep repeating kids, pupils and students that they have to get critical about the information they get, use multiple sources, compare them and more importantly make up their own mind, question their assumptions. Our recent History is a major incentive for this level of involvement and understanding of citizens in politics.

    While I know that some Americans receive similar education, I also must face the fact that, for most of them, they don't. I believe it is the core reason, even more than the media failures, for the last ten years of disasters the USA have face. From the economic crisis to the various wars they has been involved in. The USA collectively fail to understand the world and especially the Middle-East. It is completely alien to them, but at the same time, they stubbornly refuse, collectively, to make the effort to learn. I am not speaking of individuals, as I know, just by reading this blogs that there are "enlightened" Americans and not only "Tea Party" style nut cases. But collectively, the USA are failing to understand the world and its functioning, while ate the same time pretending to lead it. This pretension used to be backed by serious strength that were respected. Size does matter. However, these strengths are rapidly disappearing and the feelings left are not respect any more, but at best amusement, most of the time derision and all too often pure hate and resentment. It is a sad thing...

    • 3 votes
    Reply#17 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 4:40 AM EDT
    Kathy Gill

    Thank you, Jean-Baptiste

    We have a bad case of "not invented here" syndrome, which I fear includes just about everything. However, some of what I've read about the history of public education suggests that the system was designed to do what you have described -- at least per public utterings of some turn-of-the-20th-century leaders.

    I'm increasingly of the belief that many -- maybe most -- of our public institutions need to be razed to the ground and rebuilt. :-/

    • 3 votes
    #17.1 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 12:48 PM EDT
    Steve Rosenberger

    Jean-Baptiste: Tout a fait, mon ami.

    • 3 votes
    #17.2 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 3:14 PM EDT
    Reply
    etva

    The USA collectively fail to understand the world and especially the Middle-East. It is completely alien to them, but at the same time, they stubbornly refuse, collectively, to make the effort to learn.

    16. Jean-Baptiste: I enjoyed your post. I've always wondered why Americans so rarely take the time to understand that which is truly different. On the surface, we seem to feel superior to other nationalities, but I think it's more than that. Due to our size and location, few Americans have the opportunity to immerse themselves in a different culture and learn to appreciate it, let alone understand it.

    I had the opportunity to study abroad, and I will never forget the first time I met someone who didn't think Americans were great. It was a complete shock to me. But unlike most Americans, I couldn't just close the book I was reading, or change the channel. I had to live with them for a year, and it gave me the opportunity to see (and understand) a truly different perspective, for the first time in my life.

    I think another aspect of our problem is our educational focus on facts, rather than understanding the details and history which led to those so-called facts. We are so busy trying to prove our educational superiority with statistics, that we failed to notice that our children aren't learning to think through a problem in order to find the best solution.

    The longer Americans refuse to make the effort to understand differences, the quicker our country will lose its perceived superiority, IMO.

    • 3 votes
    #18 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 8:57 AM EDT
    Kathy Gill

    Hi,etva -- you have a good point about "our educational focus on facts". I believe that the standardized testing pushed from the federal government exacerbates this tendency.

    I know that history -- American, western civ, world -- was boring to me until I got to college. In K-12, it was focused on memorizing dates and battles (per my memory). But my WesternCiv professor in college -- freshman or sophomore year -- brought history To Life. I don't recall what she did or how -- but suddenly history had meaning. Sadly, it soon lost its luster until I started reaching mid-life and had personal context that provided framing to make history interesting.

    • 1 vote
    #18.1 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 12:51 PM EDT
    etva

    17.1 Kathy: I agree. It scares me that so many people -- especially our government leaders, think that test scores and facts are the answer to America's education crisis. I think they are missing the real problem. And then there's the Texas school board, as you mentioned in another thread... (Sigh)

    I've always enjoyed learning about history, and I was lucky, in that I had history teachers in high school, who emphasized the ability to "think" about what we were learning, and didn't try to prove one side over another.

    On the other hand, I had absolutely no education in civics and economics, though I've tried to remedy that lack over the years.

    • 1 vote
    #18.2 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 1:04 PM EDT
    Steve Rosenberger

    It seems to me that the primary failure of our public education system in this country is that Americans are taught... but they are not taught to think.

    If your education has only involved memorizing facts and figures and regurgitating them on exams, you are merely a hard-drive.

    If you are unable to digest new information, integrate it with what you know or believe, and synthesize an updated viewpoint (i.e., thinking)... you will be at the mercy of someone else pouring their "facts" into your bucket (head).

    This is why Fox News has twice the audience of CNN and MSNBC combined. The Foxists line up in front of their glowing screen like starving people with tin cups out. Nothing is required of them - except blind loyalty.

    And that is why such a large part of the American electorate has been bamboozled into voting so completely against their own best interests for the past 30 years. It would take 5 seconds to judge whether you're benefiting from a tax-cut-for-billionaires... if only you could do the math.

    • 4 votes
    #18.3 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 3:23 PM EDT
    etva

    17.3 If you are unable to digest new information, integrate it with what you know or believe, and synthesize an updated viewpoint (i.e., thinking)... you will be at the mercy of someone else

    Great post Steve. This comment succinctly explains why we must teach our children to think. If we don't, all learning stops after graduation.

    • 2 votes
    #18.4 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 4:05 PM EDT
    Kathy Gill

    I'm in agreement .... but here's my question:

    Where, exactly, did you learn skeptical/critical thinking? Was it in school? If so, in what classes. And where are you in the generational cycle?

    Here's my answer:

    I am a middle boomer - and I think I learned critical thinking by virtue of being on the debate team in high school. At least that's where I learned about argumentation (although not with that label). But it may have been that I was attracted to the debate team because I had already been taught to question. Or it may be personality: I recall I made several Sunday school teachers unhappy/uncomfortable. I also distinctly remember arguing with a history teacher in middle school (8th grade? don't remember but I can "see" the classroom in my mind's eye) and being the only person in class 'pushing back' -- I also don't remember that as having been a /pleasant/ experience.

    • 2 votes
    #18.5 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 4:23 PM EDT
    etva

    Where, exactly, did you learn skeptical/critical thinking?

    Good question. I'm a Gen X, and honestly, I think I was born with some of it. I was CONSTANTLY in trouble in Catholic school for questioning the nuns -- from 1st grade on. I can't really call it curiosity either, because I was arguing with their views, not asking for more information.

    I learned to think about facts from my high school history teachers, but I didn't really learn to consider the impact of history, until I lived overseas and actually experienced different perspectives over a period of time. I have never studied critical thinking skills in a formal setting.

    Of course, there are those (especially from my community) who would argue that I don't actually have any critical thinking skills. LOL

    • 1 vote
    #18.6 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 4:51 PM EDT
    Seth-1600355

    Kathy and etva, Make it three for three. Nothing in my upbringing would have lead me to be anything other than a bible thumper. I have come to understand that it is simply a function of my brain that allowed me not to be able to ignore the contradictions and punitive nature of religious texts. Even when something is slightly out of alignment, such as pictures on a wall, I notice it. My wife is amazed that I can level things just from sight. I think we hone these mental abilities over time with thirsts for knowledge. I will make a quess and say that the both of you are empathetic and altruistic also.

    Steve: Good post. We are woefully inept at teaching critical thinking skills. This may be by design, but I hope not.

    • 2 votes
    #18.7 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 6:37 PM EDT
    Kathy Gill

    OK. This is a little spooky, Seth. I can level things by sight, too, and off-kilter anything drives me batty!

    I think etva's point about life experience is also key. I certainly saw the world -- the US -- differently after having lived in Norway for a summer as a college teen. In fact, each time I have been abroad, I have returned with a different view of the status quo.

    • 2 votes
    #18.8 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 8:22 PM EDT
    Seth-1600355

    Kathy, I have never traveled abroad. I love travel shows. I am empathetic to a fault. I get teary eyed watching a sappy commercial. This I think binds me to all humans no matter the geographical, philosophical, or religious distances.

    • 3 votes
    #18.9 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 8:55 PM EDT
    etva

    I agree that empathy is important, but I'm afraid I can't level anything. In fact, I have NO sense of balance or direction. I've been known to walk into walls and once led my scouts across the county line by accident. Oops.

    • 1 vote
    #18.10 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 9:22 PM EDT
    Lisafrequency

    I can stand on my head while leveling pictures by sight.

    • 1 vote
    #18.11 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 11:03 PM EDT
    JAVE

    I think I learned critical thinking by virtue of being on the debate team in high school.

    Enough said.

      #18.12 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 1:53 AM EDT
      Seth-1600355

      We have stumbled upon a new hypothesis: Critical liberals will straighten your wall pictures. I'm sure there is a demon that causes this, or at least a commandment that forbids it.

      • 3 votes
      #18.13 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 7:29 PM EDT
      etva

      ROTFL: Critical liberals are possessed by symbionic levelers...

      • 2 votes
      #18.14 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 7:39 PM EDT
      Seth-1600355

      Now if I can just get my symbiote to do the dishes!

      • 2 votes
      #18.15 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 8:36 PM EDT
      etva

      I have children for that... (Smirk)

      • 2 votes
      #18.16 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 8:39 PM EDT
      Reply
      Steve Rosenberger

      @Kathy & Etva & Seth:

      Now this is the sort of conversation that Newsvine aspires to!

      It is such an interesting - and important - question. How did we come by our critical thinking skills? And why isn't it universal?

      There is obviously a "nature" component to this. We all have different gifts and abilities. Some can write or play a piece by Mozart; some (me) can't carry a tune in a bucket. Some can easily master calculus; some cannot balance their checkbooks.

      Some are endowed with an intellectual curiosity that compels us to seek knowledge and challenge viewpoints. Some are lacking either the "hardware" or the "software" for that.

      There is also, it seems to me, a "nurture" component. I came of age in the late 60s and 70s, and so fortunate to live in a place with very well-funded schools, exceptional teachers - and a very liberal (in the classic sense) educational milieu that encouraged students and teachers to challenge each other, share opposing views, and encourage consensus or acceptance by agreeing to disagree.

      I'm incredibly grateful to have had that experience. And I don't know how rare that was 40 years ago... but I suspect it is even more rare today.

      The liberal vs conservative (or "socialist!" vs "teabagger!") battles that are now being waged remind me of the physics conundrum: What happens when the irresistible force meets the immovable object?

      For better or worse, it seems America is in the process of finding that answer.

      • 4 votes
      Reply#19 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 8:25 PM EDT
      Kathy Gill

      FYI: I've started a new article specifically addressing the critical thinking question. It references this thread. No idea if it will get traction, though.

      • 3 votes
      #19.1 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 8:42 PM EDT
      Seth-1600355

      Steve, I grew up in a rural, predominantly black county in NC. I was in the seventh grade when integration was taking hold. A lot of upheavel at the high school level. I was the only white child on my bus. A large older black girl said "you sit next to me sweetheart". She told the others that if they messed with me that she would "whoop day ass". These were country kids, so there was never a time when I felt really threatened. I consider my generation to be the first truly integrated. We played high school athletics together had proms together and some even dated, but not in the open. My life experience has made me keenly aware of what it feels like to be the minority group. Even though it was only a glimpse, on a bus. The rest of the world revolved around my heterosexual, white, male ass.

      • 3 votes
      #19.2 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 9:27 PM EDT
      etva

      18.0 Steve: You raise a good question -- why isn't it universal? With the increase of information and different perspectives available online, people could learn so much, but it seems as though many only see differences and fear them, rather than looking for the positive within such diversity.

      18.2 Seth: My middle school was predominantly black. Maybe that helped open our minds to other perspectives.

      • 2 votes
      #19.3 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 9:28 PM EDT
      JAVE

      With broad sketches I think the problem is this. The current mainstream political parties force the common man to choose economic or social self interest. It has been such since the 1970's. In the old days the Democrats were socially conservative and economically liberal, like many of the common folk in America. The affluent have always held socially progressive values but also conservative economic values that maintained their wealth.

      I am a North Eastern Republican. while not my cup of tea both the Left and the GOP should consider the Tea Party. Look at the damage the Left has done with a mainstream progressive bloc like Union Labor regarding the New York issue. Many rember 'Made in the USA' was jingoism. NAFTA, Not.

        #19.4 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 1:02 AM EDT
        Reply
        etva

        Kathy has the other article up. Maybe we should move this discussion over there:)

        • 1 vote
        Reply#20 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 9:33 PM EDT
        Kathy Gill

        There's always a danger than moving it will lead to its death ... but creating a new "headline" is really the only way to get new folks talking. Catch22 of sorts.

        • 2 votes
        #20.1 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 9:40 PM EDT
        etva

        I reposted my original answer to the new site.

        • 1 vote
        #20.2 - Thu Sep 2, 2010 9:54 PM EDT
        Kathy Gill

        Thanks!

        • 1 vote
        #20.3 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 12:53 AM EDT
        Reply
        JAVE

        This is what I don't understand about the American Left. You claim this article is honest reporting regarding Muslims in our world. You also claim that folks that support such ideology make up a tiny number of people, that it is an ideology opposed by most Muslims.

        The American Left also refuses to believe that the increased distrust of Muslims since September 11th has any relation to the number of Muslims that have decided to kill fellow citizens for foreign enemies. At least September 11th was a group of foreigners.

        • 1 vote
        Reply#21 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 12:43 AM EDT
        Kathy Gill

        This article makes none of the claims that you say that it does. Your posts here are also full of sweeping generalizations ("The American left"). THIS post was not about POLITICS.

        Know that I will ignore your posts completely (via the "ignore" collapse) when they appear on anyone else's pages. I will read them on mine (I feel I have no choice in that) but I will NOT respond to your unsubstantiated claims.

        Finally, I don't try to have conversation with people who do not fill out bios and change their default picture: those actions show a disrespect for the Newsvine community, IMO.

        • 2 votes
        #21.1 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 12:57 AM EDT
        JAVE

        This article makes none of the claims that you say that it does.

        I never said the article stated what I said. What I wrote was counter point to the article. If you accept what the article states, then what I wrote makes sense. What I wrote was relevant to the issues discussed in the article.

        If you don't believe that all the plots and attacks by Americans against Americans for foreigners is not at the root of these issues discussed in the article then what can I say. Delete and ignore me.

        • 1 vote
        #21.2 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 1:31 AM EDT
        Reply
        JAVE

        There were few, if any, who foresaw the extent of the violence that would follow or the political convulsion it would cause in Iraq, America and elsewhere...the bitterness that would seep into American politics; the anti-Americanism that would become a commonplace around the world.

        That is just at the start of the post. Was what I said irrelevant? Did I not discuss the very topics the post started with? Not being comfortable with something is different.

          Reply#22 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 1:41 AM EDT
          Kathy Gill

          Was what you said irrelevant?

          Yes, what you said in the prior post had nothing to do with the content of the excerpt or it was vague or it was a sweeping generalization.

          • 2 votes
          #22.1 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 2:29 AM EDT
          JAVE

          So which of those three things was it?

          You just don't wish to believe the change in so many American's opinions has anything to do with the number of plots and attacks commited by fellow Americans.

          Root causes matter.

            #22.2 - Fri Sep 3, 2010 3:46 AM EDT
            Reply
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