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Student Loans, Private Universities and NPR

Wed May 25, 2011 3:32 PM EDT
education, student-loans, liberty-university, federal-student-loans, university-of-phoenix, private-universities
By Kathy Gill

The factoid, from the June Harper's Index, sent my blood pressure north and my fingers to the keyboard:

Amount of federal money that went to National Public Radio in 2010: $2.7 million
To Jerry Falwell's Liberty University: $446 million

WTH?

It did not take long to find the source of the Liberty University funds: in March, according to U.S. Department of Education data, Liberty received more federal student aid dollars than any other institution of higher education in the state of Virginia. You read that right: more than the University of Virginia. More than Virginia Tech. More than any other institution of higher education.

The private institution (what makes something a "university" instead of a "college"?) was founded in 1971 with the stated mission of training "young champions for Christ." It has a resident campus of 12,200. The state's two major public institutions dwarf Liberty on campus enrollment. UVA? 21,000.  VT? 29,000.

So what gives?

Liberty (Lynchburg, VA) sucks in federal dollars because it has set up an online university (think University of Phoenix et al) which it has used to claim 58,000 students. The online university provided a windfall:

In the span of a year, Liberty's experienced about a 56 percent spike in federal student aid, from $284 million in 2008-2009 to $445 million in 2009-2010, according to Department of Education data compiled by The News & Advance.

Ironically, in 2007, Liberty was $20-$25 million in debt. The school used a $34 million insurance policy to pay off debt when Falwell, Sr. died.

The federal windfall, if it follows the law of averages, is coming at the expense of the American taxpayer. That's because students at for-profit colleges/universities default at an astronomical rate relative to public colleges. Private school students account for about half of all federal student loan defaults yet these institutions account for about a quarter of federal financial aid while enrolling only about 10 percent of college students.

Officials at for-profit colleges say that their students default at higher rates because a majority of them are poorer to start with and face many more financial challenges. Critics of the colleges say their high default rates show that many of those institutions are loading up their students with unaffordable debt that the students cannot repay once they graduate or drop out. - Chronicle of Higher Education

Despite that poor performance, the rate at which private colleges and universities suck in federal dollars is accelerating and federal money underpins finances:

In 2008, about 2,000 for-profit colleges eligible for federal student aid enrolled nearly 1.8 million students — an increase of 225% in 10 years... Last year, federal student loans and grants made up an average 77% of revenue at the five largest for-profits.

Last year, student loans outpaced credit card debt for the first time. There are few speed bumps to slow the money-printing machine that is for-profit higher ed (watch Frontline - College, Inc. to read why Wall Street loves them and how the founders co-opt accredited institutions -- because accreditation is the big deal). This begs the question: what is the role of publicly-financed higher education in the 21st century?

Arguably, post-WWII access to public education was a driving force in the nation's economic growth in the middle 20th century. But today, state legislatures are shrugging off their commitment to public education. In the state of Washington, state money contributes less than half the cost of undergraduate tuition at the University of Washington. Can we truly call it a public university?

Clearly, we need a national conversation about the role of public education -- K-12 and higher ed.

I think that loan reduction, forgiveness or deferrals should be offered to graduates who ignore the lure of Wall Street (and the Beltway) and embrace the needs of Main Street. Doctors, pharmacists, teachers, nurses, fire fighters even IT professionals and maybe even public defenders -- entice them to serve our nation's rural and less affluent communities (like those where much of my family lives in southwest Georgia, southeast Alabama and northwest Florida). This assumes, of course, that their education truly prepares them for a career in their chosen field. (Again, see Frontline - College, Inc. for how a California for-profit graduated nursing students without their ever setting foot in a hospital.)

This is not the only conversation about education that our nation needs to undertake. But it's one that should be at the top of the national agenda.

:: First Appeared At WiredPen : Follow Me On Twitter!

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Kathy Gill

Also posted at The Moderate Voice.

  • 6 votes
Reply#1 - Wed May 25, 2011 3:33 PM EDT
Robert in Ohio

Kathy

I would like to see federal grant money going only to state universities. If someone can afford to go to a private school (Ivy League or Notre Dame or whatever) they do not need a federal grant.

I would also like to see student loans forgiven for students who enter and remain a minimum of five years in a critical field like education, medicine for example.

As long as student loans and grants are not restricted there is no reason to highlight that Liberty University is doing anything wrong because they are not.

  • 5 votes
#1.1 - Wed May 25, 2011 6:51 PM EDT
Summer-1597193

Robert in Ohio, I can understand wanting the federal grants to go only to state universities. At the same time, some students are able to get into private schools (such as Ivy League, etc.), but they can't afford to go to those schools - so a federal grant helps make it affordable for them. Now, they could, arguably, get a great education at a state school - but, let's face it, there is a certain amount of prestige in going to an Ivy League School - it does carry some weight in certain fields.

As far as student loan forgiveness - there are programs like that in place for certain fields. Education, Nursing, PA School, and Medical school are all fields that have certain programs in place to help out with student loan repayment. They all have strings attached to them - which is fine, they should. For example, in medicine - I can apply for loan forgiveness up to a certain amount, and in exchange for that, I agree to work in a primary care field in an under served area (either rural or urban). There are both federal and state programs that help with loan repayment/forgiveness - they vary on field, I'm sure.

  • 1 vote
#1.2 - Wed May 25, 2011 9:21 PM EDT
Reliant

Robert in Ohio

I agree that Liberty is not doing anything "wrong" in getting the grants for their students. I personally have a bias against any public funds underlying any religious based teaching. However, so long as Liberty is accredited and they are not in some way being unfairly advantaged then there should not be any action taken to disenfranchise them.

That being said, when you see a statistical anomaly like when a smaller populations uses a disproportionately large percentage of the resources, I think it does bear examination.

  • 3 votes
#1.3 - Wed May 25, 2011 10:49 PM EDT
gatoralum

It is not the religious aspect that is bothersom; it is the 58,000 on line students pouring money into the place. No legitmate institution of higher learning can be based on 80 % of its students participating on line. And, there is not public funds underlying religion with grants to students attending a religious based institution. The money goes to the student to use at whatever school they choose.

  • 1 vote
#1.4 - Thu May 26, 2011 8:44 AM EDT
Robert in Ohio

gatoralum

But since the on line program is accredited like other schools with on line programs that also get federal money to students for attending (loans and grants) isn't that ik as well.

PHoenix University is all on line and many many degrees are awarded annually

  • 1 vote
#1.5 - Thu May 26, 2011 9:07 AM EDT
gatoralum

I have a huge problem with federal money going to places like Pheonix and the other on line and for profit colleges. It is well established that these institutions, that used to be known as diploma mills, graduate very few of their students and have a whole lot who, when they do graduate, have huge debts and little marketable skills. I would not consider hiring a graduate of either Liberty or Phoenix.

  • 1 vote
#1.6 - Thu May 26, 2011 9:48 AM EDT
Robert in Ohio

gatoralum

I could support that

If we also eliminate the eligibility of the on line operations of all universities being eligible for the application of federal funds for payment.

I think education should take place in the social atmosphere of the classroom

  • 1 vote
#1.7 - Thu May 26, 2011 9:56 AM EDT
gatoralum

Exactly.

  • 1 vote
#1.8 - Thu May 26, 2011 2:47 PM EDT
Kathy Gill

RE ACCREDITATION -- it's not simple or straightforward. There are several different accreditation organizations -- all do not confer the same "privileges" for institutions or students.

RE ONLINE COURSES -- online classes should not cost as much per credit hour as on campus classes (no classroom facilities). There is nothing wrong with online education/degrees and no reason that they should, inherently, be less valuable.

  • 2 votes
#1.9 - Fri May 27, 2011 1:03 AM EDT
Reply
analog ninja

WTF indeed. Great article, well sourced/linked. Cheers!

  • 7 votes
Reply#2 - Wed May 25, 2011 3:55 PM EDT
Kathy Gill

Thanks. :-)

  • 2 votes
#2.1 - Fri May 27, 2011 1:05 AM EDT
Reply
PAUL-372271

nice seed, as well as thouroughly disturbing, I wish the American people would/or could sue for fraud. America has become a land to prey on the poor.

  • 6 votes
Reply#3 - Wed May 25, 2011 4:09 PM EDT
Trying to find Work

Great article, and it is just one front of the many pronged attack to de-fund public education on all levels while using tax payer dollars to fund PRIVATE FOR-PROFIT education using charter schools, vouchers, on-line universities, and student loans.

All schooling, from Head Start and kindergarden through colleges and universities are under attack by those who want to use American tax dollars to add to their profit margin.

Even scarier is that President Obama and Bill Gates are on board and are passing laws (Race to the Top) to bring this disaster to fruition.

  • 3 votes
Reply#4 - Wed May 25, 2011 4:11 PM EDT
Texasguy01

I see two distinct and separate threads. Why single out a Christian themed University? Is there something wrong with a Christian University offering outreach programs to those who can not attend a traditional classroom due to work of family commitments? You seem to be implying that a Christian University is not as worthy as a Public Institution. Of course that bias is par for the course in secular institutions. Liberty University appears to offer a good value for the money and a positive Christian learning experience.

Why have you not attacked Women's Universities or historically minority Colleges? They are all in the same category. The first part of your article appears as a back handed slap against any Christian University with out a reason why except for they proclaim Christian social principles.

  • 1 vote
Reply#5 - Wed May 25, 2011 4:13 PM EDT
Fufu

Why single out a Christian themed University?

Because it is a violation of the First Amendment for religious institutions, including universities, to be supported with taxpayer dollars.

You seem to be implying that a Christian University is not as worthy as a Public Institution.

That's not what Kathy was implying at all. Kathy, I assume, has an issue with a for-profit and religious institution receiving taxpayer dollars. On the other hand, I will come out and say it bluntly: a Christian university is not as worthy as a secular public university. The quality of the education will not be as good.

  • 5 votes
#5.1 - Wed May 25, 2011 4:48 PM EDT
Texasguy01

Well Ms Fufu I at least salute your honesty.

Liberty University is a Registered IRS 503(c)(3) nonprofit educational corporation so your statement about them being a for profit school does not appear to hold water.

http://www2.guidestar.org/organizations/54-0946734/liberty-university.aspx

From looking at it there is also a factual error in the article missing a few thousand students. There are 70,000+ plus students total. Why would the author say "used to claim"? They appear clearly to exist.

https://www.liberty.edu/index.cfm?PID=6925

Liberty University Quick Facts

Institutional Type
The University is a religiously-oriented, private, co-educational, comprehensive institution

Motto
"Knowledge Aflame"

Location
Lynchburg, Virginia

Founded
1971

Campus

  • 6,500-acre campus
  • Over 4 million sq. feet of facilities
  • 212 buildings
  • 205 classrooms

Enrollment

  • Residential enrollment: 12,200
  • Online enrollment: 58,000
  • Total enrollment: 70,200

As for the remarks about the quality of education that is based on educational accreditation. Liberty is well accredited by all national standards so how are they an inferior education?

https://www.liberty.edu/index.cfm?PID=7650

Institutional Accreditation

SACS - Southern Association of Colleges and Schools

Liberty University is regionally accredited by the Commission on Colleges of the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools (SACS-COC) to award degrees at associate, baccalaureate, master’s, education specialist and doctoral levels.

Accreditation ensures that Liberty University has met strict standards with regard to degree programs, faculty, administration, student support and services. Accreditation also ensures that courses taken and degrees earned through Liberty University will be accepted by other accredited institutions recognized by the U.S. Department of Education.

Schools participate in the accreditation process in order to gain third-party recognition that verifies the institution meets certain standards of academic and administrative quality and is committed to continual improvement.

As an accredited institution, Liberty University is eligible to participate in federal educational programs such as military tuition assistance, government tuition reimbursement programs, the GI Bill and corporate tuition assistance. Credits and degrees earned through Liberty are therefore recognized by private industry and by the military and federal government for promotion, assignment and position qualification standards.

SACS-COC accredits degree-granting higher education institutions in Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas and Virginia, which make up one of six geographic regions for accreditation in the United States.

Contact the Commission on Colleges at:
1866 Southern Lane

Decatur, Georgia 30033-4097
(404) 679-4500

The Commission requests that it be contacted to learn about the accreditation status of Liberty University, to file a third-party comment at the time of Liberty University’s decennial review, or to file a complaint against Liberty University for alleged non-compliance with a standard or requirement.

Program Accreditation

In addition to regional accreditation, many of Liberty’s programs are accredited or otherwise recognized by specialized professional and accrediting agencies:

  • 2 votes
#5.2 - Wed May 25, 2011 5:32 PM EDT
Fufu

The acceptance rate for students entering LU in 2009 was 96% [21] (not including the 100% acceptance rate for online students); the 25th-75th SAT percentile ranges for 2008 freshmen were 430-540 for critical reading and 420-530 for math, according to U.S. News & World Report.[22]

Those admissions would be embarrassing to a real university, such as the University of Virginia, Virginia Tech, or even my alma mater, the University of Maryland.

Admittance to the University of Maryland has become highly selective. According to the US News and World Report, Maryland is rated "More Selective" with a 41.9 percent acceptance rate.[42] The university regularly receives about 26,000 applications a year for a freshman class of 4,000, along with 6,500 transfer applications for 2,000 available transfer spots.[43] The incoming class for 2009 represents the highest qualifications of any class in the University's history, measured by a mean SAT of 1285 and average GPA of 3.93.

Accreditation ensures that a university meets bare minimum standards and it appears that Liberty finds the bare minimum satisfactory.

According to the U.S. News and World Report, Liberty University's ranking in the 2011 edition of Best Colleges is Regional Universities (South), Tier 2.[24] It had been in Tier 4 until US New and World Report eliminated that tier [25] For comparison purposes, other universities in Tier 2 include Christopher Newport University, Evangel University, and Ferrum College.

The one exception to Liberty's sub-par academic records is their recently established law school, which I will give full credit to for appearing to ensure a quality legal education.

There are certainly more than a few indications that a graduate from Liberty is unprepared to face the world.

Liberty University teaches Young Earth Creationism as an explanation for the appearance of life on earth. The university works with Young Earth creationist organizations including Answers in Genesis.[56][57][58][59] In biology classes students are taught both creationism and evolution and that creationism offers a better explanation of biological diversity than evolution.[60][61]

Furthermore, universities which so strongly favor one political agenda, going so far as to revoke revoke recognition of a campus club because it supports the "wrong" of the two major political parties, should never receive taxpayer funding.

On May 15, 2009, vice president of student affairs Mark Hine sent an e-mail to the president of LU's College Democrats, Brian O'nill Diaz, revoking the university's recognition of the club. "The Democratic Party platform is contrary to the mission of Liberty University and to Christian doctrine," Hine's e-mail stated, citing the party's positions on abortion, same-sex marriage, hate crimes, LGBT civil rights, and socialism as justification for the dissolution.

I was incorrect about Liberty operating as a for-profit university. It's online 100% acceptance rate certainly indicates that it is run like the jokes that are the University of Phoenix and the like. It is a tax-exempt organization, which makes it all the more appalling that it is receiving taxpayer funds to support a religious and partisan mission.

  • 6 votes
#5.3 - Wed May 25, 2011 5:48 PM EDT
Texasguy01

There are certainly more than a few indications that a graduate from Liberty is unprepared to face the world.

Liberty University teaches Young Earth Creationism as an explanation for the appearance of life on earth. The university works with Young Earth creationist organizations including Answers in Genesis.[56][57][58][59] In biology classes students are taught both creationism and evolution and thatcreationism offers a better explanation of biological diversity than evolution.[60][61]

Perhaps their educational focus is not the world but eternity? A education focused on the eternal to me would have far more value than one focused on a temporal.

To me a University should be an open exchange of ideas and creationism is accepted by many except for secular academics who are a distinct minority and accept it with far less proof than those of faith they chastise for the same. Why is it incorrect to look at both sides of an issue? If an idea is superior should it not be discussed? Quelling disagreement to me avoids the fact they can not make a substantial case.

As for the Democrats and Christianity I would understand but also understand the mission of a Christian is education and evangelism. To me the Democratic Party historically was strongest and the most powerful when it was not anti Christian. If I was the head of Liberty University I would support campus Democratic Clubs as long as they were focused on Biblically correct issues and evangelizing the Democratic Party on the issues that are anti Christian. I would not underestimate the "mustard seed of faith" and the Power of God to reshape mens hearts and minds.

I find it interesting that you would attack their acceptance rates? Are not the acceptance rates for a Community College or other schools close? Is not the general theme you are proposing is "open and accessible education? Is it not correct then to mock the poor unwashed masses trying to better themselves? Sorry that is a Christian theme and mission.

  • 2 votes
#5.4 - Wed May 25, 2011 6:12 PM EDT
gatoralum

To be against the decidely un-Christian Jerry Falwell and the ridiculous excuse for an institution of higher learning (58,000 on line students?) is not to be anti-christian. The best evidence that a young person is not really interested in learning would be for them to enroll at Liberty University. I would be immensely proud if my son attended truly impressive college like Notre Dame, Georgetown, Boston College. It is not the religious affiliation that makes the amount of federal money going there, it is the profound waste of money that occurs when money is paid to Liberty University.

  • 3 votes
#5.5 - Wed May 25, 2011 6:38 PM EDT
Chris-735081

To me the Democratic Party historically was strongest and the most powerful when it was not anti Christian.

Since when has the democratic party been 'anti-christian'? you talk about a free exchange of ideas and information... yet believe Democrats are 'anti-christian'. It really seems to me that there are a LOT of Christians who are democrats and still pro-christianity.

How is the democratic party anti-christian?

That's so completely subjective, I don't even know where to start.

Mainstream christians? Which christians are those? Fundamentally, this is an intellectually untenable position you are holding.

  • 2 votes
#5.6 - Wed May 25, 2011 6:52 PM EDT
Chris-735081

A education focused on the eternal to me would have far more value than one focused on a temporal.

Woof.

You're gonna have a hard time selling a lot of people on the idea that christian dogma or practices are eternally static. They aren't and they never have been.

Scientific principles change over time, but the scientific method does not. The interpretation of the scientific method never changes. Perspectives change on individual subjects, new information is added, but the interpretations of the bible can change on a dime, the bible can be revised, added to or subtracted to at any time.

You cannot have science without the scientific method, but not even God or Christ is a constant concept in Christianity. Nearly every aspect of the bible is transient in some fashion.

You've heard of the book of mormon right? How God and Christ are radically different than what most of Christianity believes?

What about Calvinists?

How about Jehovah's witnesses?

How about United Pentacostals?

How about Voodoo and their inclusion of Catholic ideology and religious icons?

How about Judaism?

How about Reformed Judaism?

How about Orthodox Judaism?

How about Conservative Judaism?

How about Messianic Jews?

You could be referencing 'eternal' as in 'eternal salvation'... but I'm not familiar with any abrahamic religion belief system which has not changed significantly over time. Time being the operative word, where religions far outlive their current adherents.

In science though, we know that fire and heat are caused by rapidly moving molecules; this has been true far longer than man has walked the earth... unless you are a young earth creationist... in which case, they apparently happened a couple of days apart. But there are 'old earth' creationists too...

For another example, there's little proof that christians used to believe in hell, now most all christians do. It's as subjective as subjective gets. The best you can do is learn as many of the opinions as you can, but you'll never actually be able to test any of them.

Do you understand what I'm getting at? Temporal, static... not a very accurate use of words when dealing with creationism where the best you can hope for is a consensus of opinions based on belief systems that change with the wind on a long time table.

  • 2 votes
#5.7 - Wed May 25, 2011 7:25 PM EDT
Fufu

Texasguy is a perfect example of just why we must always be on guard against the religious indoctrination of our nation. That someone honestly thinks that this is true,

To me a University should be an open exchange of ideas and creationism is accepted by many except for secular academics who are a distinct minority and accept it with far less proof than those of faith they chastise for the same.

... simply goes to show how unprepared for the real world those with a purely religious view, i.e. Liberty graduates, are.

  • 1 vote
#5.8 - Wed May 25, 2011 8:02 PM EDT
Texasguy01

Another thing that may surprise you in my autographed autobiography of Jerry Falwell in my library Liberty University he himself describes how this was his biggest dream of all. It was not the Moral Majority or the political activities but the desire to offer a Christian educational environment. And it appears many others agree with him there is a need to fill by this school.

Ms. Fufu is correct. I really do believe all of this completely and wholeheartedly. This has come from years of study and examination. At least I have an open mind. In response to her my academic background is quite extensive. In my particular Church it is not unusual.

    #5.9 - Thu May 26, 2011 10:47 AM EDT
    gatoralum

    Study and examination of what? Certainly not science.

    • 1 vote
    #5.10 - Thu May 26, 2011 2:48 PM EDT
    Kathy Gill

    To Texasguy01 -- I thought I made it very clear -- it was a Harper's Index item that triggered this article. The fact that a small private college gets more federal student loan money than the state's two public institutions -- which dwarf it in both enrollment and intellectual rigor -- is wrong, IMO.

    • 2 votes
    #5.11 - Fri May 27, 2011 1:12 AM EDT
    Reply
    BAjunkie

    Liberty (Lynchburg, VA) sucks in federal dollars because it has set up an online university (think University of Phoenix et al)

    Not quite. While Liberty U. is a private institution, it is still not for profit. It offers online distance learning degrees, much like most other four year institutions, including most public state universities.

      Reply#6 - Wed May 25, 2011 4:34 PM EDT
      gatoralum

      Most other four year institutions andpublic state universities with 70,000 + students do not have 58,000 attending on line. That is ridiculous assertion. They suck in these federal dollars without providing much of value in return.

      • 2 votes
      #6.1 - Wed May 25, 2011 6:44 PM EDT
      BAjunkie

      They suck in these federal dollars without providing much of value in return.

      They provide just as much value as a degree obtained in a traditional setting. What you're doing, I believe, is overlooking the fact that these programs are SACS accredited. That's the difference between a legit degree obtained through online classes, and something like U. of Phoenix. I mean, are you really saying that a Masters in IT from Virginia Tech, or an MBA from Penn State (both of which can be obtained through online distance learning courses) are of no value?

      • 1 vote
      #6.2 - Thu May 26, 2011 2:02 PM EDT
      Fufu

      I mean, are you really saying that a Masters in IT from Virginia Tech, or an MBA from Penn State (both of which can be obtained through online distance learning courses) are of no value?

      Are you honestly saying that Liberty University has the same academic reputation that Virginia Tech and Penn State do?

      According to the U.S. News and World Report, Liberty University's ranking in the 2011 edition of Best Colleges is Regional Universities (South), Tier 2.[24] It had been in Tier 4 until US New and World Report eliminated that tier [25] For comparison purposes, other universities in Tier 2 include Christopher Newport University, Evangel University, and Ferrum College.

      For comparison...

      In the U.S. News & World Report's 「Best Colleges 2011」, Virginia Tech ranked 69th among national universities and 30th among national public universities.[13] In a more recent report, the Virginia Tech College of Engineering undergraduate program was ranked 13th in the nation (tied with Northwestern University and the University of Wisconsin-Madison) among all accredited engineering schools that offer doctorates and seventh among engineering schools at public universities.[citation needed] Six Virginia Tech undergraduate engineering specialties ranked among the top 20 of their respective peer programs (aerospace engineering, 10th; civil engineering, 7th; electrical engineering, 17th; engineering science and mechanics, 8th; environmental engineering, 9th; industrial engineering, 4th; and mechanical engineering, 14th, Biological System Engineering, 8th). Its graduate program in Engineering is considered among the first 20 in US, among all public and private universities, with strong emphasis on intensive interdisciplinary research.

      The 2010 Academic Ranking of World Universities ranks Penn State 43rd among universities worldwide. U.S. News & World Report ranks Penn State's undergraduate program 47th in its 2011 American's Best College.[56] In 2010, Penn State was also ranked 98th in the QS World University Rankings.[57]

      According to a Wall Street Journal survey released in September 2010, Penn State was ranked #1 among 479 corporate recruiting executives who were asked to identify "whose bachelor degree graduates were the best-trained and educated, and best able to succeed once hired."[58][59]

      • 1 vote
      #6.3 - Thu May 26, 2011 2:14 PM EDT
      gatoralum

      I really doubt that you can earn a Masters from either VT or PSU solely on the basis of on line participation.

        #6.4 - Thu May 26, 2011 2:50 PM EDT
        BAjunkie

        Are you honestly saying that Liberty University has the same academic reputation that Virginia Tech and Penn State do?

        No, but I'm saying that it's on par with other like institutions, and not comparable to ECPI, Pheonix, etc.

        I really doubt that you can earn a Masters from either VT or PSU solely on the basis of on line participation.

        Penn State online MBA program. VT online. I live 20 minutes away from VT, and my coworker is currently enrolled in the online MIT program, which peaked my interest, as I was trying to decide whether to get my MIT there, or my MBA from Radford, my alma mater.

          #6.5 - Thu May 26, 2011 2:57 PM EDT
          Fufu

          Liberty University may be somewhat better than the University of Phoenix, but that hardly makes one want to consider them an institution of academic integrity. They have a 100% acceptance rate online and a 96% on campus. That's hardly indicating that they are at all selective about their incoming class.

          Liberty's post-graduation academic rankings are abysmal and not nearly high enough for an employer to overlook their horrific science education.

          I looked up the organization that is responsible for accrediting universities in the southeast and has accredited Liberty University. What's interesting is that none of the requirements for accreditation are based upon quality of academics. They are pretty much limited to the managerial operation of the school. (Read the core principles starting on page 13 of that .pdf.)

          The institution has a sound financial base and demonstrated financial stability to support the mission of the institution and the scope of its programs and services.

          One wonders how Liberty dodged that particular bullet.

          • 1 vote
          #6.6 - Thu May 26, 2011 3:15 PM EDT
          BAjunkie

          That's hardly indicating that they are at all selective about their incoming class.

          Granted.

          They are pretty much limited to the managerial operation of the school.

          There is this, however, which seems to indicate that they must conform to some generally accepted principles regarding quality of education:

          3.5.3 The institution defines and publishes requirements for its undergraduate
          programs, including its general education components. These
          requirements conform to commonly accepted standards and practices
          for degree programs. (Undergraduate program requirements)

            #6.7 - Thu May 26, 2011 3:32 PM EDT
            Fufu

            It still seems as though accreditation from the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools, as with any other regional accreditation body in the United States, only ensures a bare minimum of integrity. This stands in stark contrast to Association of American Universities, which is composed of the top 60 universities in the United States and Canada.

            I think that I've demonstrated that Liberty University doesn't belong in the same sentence with the top 500 or so universities in the United States (US News and World Report doesn't even give Liberty University a ranking within just the South - Regional Universities bracket, which ranks 87 schools just from that region). But if the school wants to use the following on their website, it's fine with me.

            "Liberty University - Better than the University of Phoenix and ITT Tech."

            • 3 votes
            #6.8 - Thu May 26, 2011 3:49 PM EDT
            Kathy Gill

            BAjunkie : please show me a public university that has a ratio of online-to-campus enrollment that matches Liberty. University of Phoenix is accredited and eligible for federal student loans. As I have noted above, IMO it is not the delivery system, per se, that is at issue.

            • 1 vote
            #6.9 - Fri May 27, 2011 1:18 AM EDT
            Reply
            Better Careful

            I watched the PBS show on Frontline a while back. Mills like the U. of Phoenix charge as much as Yale or Harvard for a third-rate education, and do by setting up their marks with huge amounts of debt. The US taxpayer is responsible for that debt, I understand, when the mark fails to make payments due to the worthless education and plundered job market. Investors - the same group who plundered the job market - make out like bandits (which is appropriate) while their marks and the US taxpayer get taken.

            The biggest scammer in this is in Arizona. That somehow doesn't surprise me. It's another example of plunder by a certain class of people.

            • 4 votes
            Reply#7 - Wed May 25, 2011 4:40 PM EDT
            Fufu

            Kathy, I'd love for you to write more articles. When I see one of your articles pop up, I know that I'm about to become well-informed about an important topic.

            This issue is important because it is a clear violation of the First Amendment, as well as just unconscionable to provide funds to a for-profit institution. It's even more insulting when you consider the current War on Education being waged by the Republican Party and its efforts to strip all funding from public education (at the primary, secondary, and tertiary levels).

            • 3 votes
            Reply#8 - Wed May 25, 2011 4:45 PM EDT
            100thmonkeync

            Fufu:

            All of what you said is very well laid out. I also believe that it is is a violation of the First Amendment to give favor to Liberty University, an outrageous amount at that, while attacking higher education on the state level and education in general.

            • 2 votes
            #8.1 - Wed May 25, 2011 5:08 PM EDT
            Kathy Gill

            Thanks, Fufu - I don't see this as a First Amendment violation. The federal government is not establishing a religion.

            • 2 votes
            #8.2 - Fri May 27, 2011 1:21 AM EDT
            Fufu

            Student loans are designed to ensure that even economically disadvantaged students can attend college. They are not designed to promote a religious agenda. However, students at Liberty University are required to attend convocation three times per week. Students at Liberty are taught, in the classroom, not only to be religious, but to be politically religious.

            Is there a single dollar of federal money going to an equivalent Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Shinto, or animist education?

            That is why I believe that it is a violation of the First Amendment.

            • 3 votes
            #8.3 - Fri May 27, 2011 9:09 AM EDT
            Robert in Ohio

            Fufu

            I do not disagree with your point but other reigous focused colleges and even seminaries are elligible for Pell Grants an state tuition aid

            http://www.faith.edu/admissions/financialaid/handbook.pdf

            http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/31/nyregion/31tuition.html

            http://www.wherewhatwhen.com/articles/seminary.html

              #8.4 - Fri May 27, 2011 2:54 PM EDT
              Fufu

              Yes, I am aware of the other religiously motivated schools that can receive federal money in one way or another. I disagree with federal money going towards any religious organization or project.

              The state budget plan that moved toward enactment on Wednesday calls for 10 percent cuts in aid to public colleges and universities, but it would add about $18 million a year in tuition assistance for students attending some private religious schools.

              Cutting 10% of funding to public colleges and universities while increasing spending for private religious schools should be criminal.

              • 1 vote
              #8.5 - Fri May 27, 2011 3:35 PM EDT
              gatoralum

              My father was a federal employee. He paid for my private catholic school education with the money he was paid. Is that federal money improperly supporting a religious institution? I see very little difference between that and a federal grant or laon that is payable to me to use at whatever college I want.

                #8.6 - Fri May 27, 2011 6:59 PM EDT
                Robert in Ohio

                gatoralum

                No of course not.

                We ere discussing Pell grants and similar government grants, subsidies used at religious colleges and seminaries and whether that was proper or not.

                Fufu

                You are correct that scenario you depict does nto sound fair to me, it seems that the cuts should be equal across the board

                • 1 vote
                #8.7 - Fri May 27, 2011 7:08 PM EDT
                gatoralum

                But these grants are student specific. They go to the student. If the student chooses to use them to obtain a degree at an institution with a religious affiliation, I see no problem with that. That some money goes a @!$%#hole like Liberty where people are indoctrinated with the most un-Christian bull@!$%# is the price we have to pay for providing assistance to kids going to Notre Dame, Georgetown, TCU and other instutions with a religious connection.

                • 1 vote
                #8.8 - Fri May 27, 2011 7:58 PM EDT
                Robert in Ohio

                gatoralum

                You know I can agree with that I guess, I was thinking restrict the federal money to state schools, but I guess Liberty, Notre Dame etc are as good as any state school if he student gets a good education

                • 1 vote
                #8.9 - Fri May 27, 2011 8:04 PM EDT
                Kathy Gill

                Hi, Fufu - re #8.3 - have you sources for that info?

                I think the issue should be focused on the quality of the education, which is supposedly the goal of accreditation. Repeating myself: loans for online education should NOT be made at the same $/credit hour as loans for on-campus education. It's not that I believe online classes are inferior, it's that I know that they cost less.

                • 2 votes
                #8.10 - Fri Jun 3, 2011 3:41 PM EDT
                Fufu

                Here is a link to the Liberty University On Campus Living Guide.

                Convocation is an assembly of the University community and its purpose is to develop campus unity, disseminate information, and challenge students spiritually, socially, morally and intellectually. Convocation provides forums for the social and political issues of the day, as well as educational topics of diverse interest for the benefit of students, faculty, and staff. Guest speakers from the world of business, politics, education, religion, and the sciences also help to make Convocation a refreshing and challenging time.
                All students are required to attend Convocation on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays. This includes all resident students, commuters, undergraduates, graduate and seminary students.

                - Page 3

                The goal of the Christian/Community Service Department is twofold. The first is to provide a student with an actual experience of Christian Community Service as a normal expression of the Christian life and a practical expression of God's love for mankind. A student will participate in Christian/Community Service throughout his/her education experience at Liberty University. A second goal is to give added dimension of practical application to the education programs of Liberty University. Each Christian/Community Service program is designed to help teach the student to develop a sense of responsibility in and through Christian community service. Students also learn skills and values, which enable them to better serve their community.
                Every student is considered a direct ambassador of Liberty University. Students desiring to accept an engagement to preach, sing or perform a Christian or community service function on behalf of the University must receive prior approval from the Director of Christian/Community Service. Christian/Community Service is required for all full-time Undergraduate, Seminary, Graduate, School of Religion and Liberty Bible Institute (LBI) students. Graduation requirements can be found in the Christian/Community Service Handbook.

                - Page 3

                Here is a link to a story about Liberty University's hostility towards its Democratic Club on campus.

                Mike Signer, a Democratic candidate for lieutenant governor, said:
                “The decision of the Liberty University administration to revoke the recognition of the students' Democratic organization is deeply troubling. It is even more problematic that the school has decided to continue to recognize the campus Republicans."

                Liberty University has revoked its recognition of the campus Democratic Party club, saying “we are unable to lend support to a club whose parent organization stands against the moral principles held by” the university.

                Part of Hine’s e-mail said, “The Democratic Party platform is contrary to the mission of Liberty University and to Christian doctrine (supports abortion, federal funding of abortion, advocates repeal of the federal Defense of Marriage Act, promotes the “LGBT” agenda, hate crimes, which include sexual orientation and gender identity, socialism, etc.)” LGBT refers to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people.

                Mark Lawrence, chairman of the citywide Lynchburg Democratic Party, called The News & Advance Thursday after he learned about the revocation.

                “My issue with this is the statement that the Democratic Party platform is contrary to the mission of Liberty University and to Christian doctrine,” Lawrence said. “They are essentially saying, ‘you cannot be a Christian and a Democrat.’”

                It should be noted that Liberty, under pressure from the American Civil Liberties Union and Democratic Party officials, did attempt to resolve the issue.

                In late June, Liberty University announced a new policy dealing with all political clubs on campus. The new policy removes official recognition from all political clubs on campus, relegating them to unofficial status. Chancellor Falwell said the previously suspended College Democrats “wouldn’t have to do anything” to be recognized under the new policy. Along with other stipulations, the policy allows unofficial clubs to use the university’s name, but they will not receive any college funding.[76] Democratic Governor Tim Kaine was quoted as saying that Liberty University solved the club controversy "perfectly." [77]

                However, reading through the On Campus Living Guide and other actions by Liberty University, it certainly is crystal clear that it is a university with a defined political agenda.

                Also of interest...

                Liberty University teaches Young Earth Creationism as an explanation for the appearance of life on earth. The university works with Young Earth creationist organizations including Answers in Genesis.[56][57][58][59] In biology classes students are taught both creationism and evolution and that creationism offers a better explanation of biological diversity than evolution.[60][61]

                In October, 2006 the university published an advertisement in The Chronicle of Higher Education in an attempt to recruit staff to its biology department. The advertisement stated that the university was "seeking faculty who can demonstrate a personal faith commitment to its evangelical Christian purpose" and specified that "compatibility with a young-earth creationist philosophy [is] required."[62]

                • 1 vote
                #8.11 - Fri Jun 3, 2011 6:53 PM EDT
                Kathy Gill

                Wow. Thank you!!

                • 1 vote
                #8.12 - Sat Jun 4, 2011 3:15 AM EDT
                Joe-1680982

                Kathy Gill, comment # 8.10:

                “...it's that I know that they cost less.”

                I wish this point would be more public. I’m currently finishing my second degree at a major, but private, university and have had to make use of some of they’re on-line courses due to the lack of availability of some courses because the required number of students needed to physically open a class for a given course on campus didn’t sign up and, with regards to my chosen major, the courses were required subjects for graduation.

                They’re position/story was/is: that the ‘cost’ of setting up the ‘website’ for the on-line course was/is more than a ‘regular’ class (where everyone actually meets in a classroom with a professor). That makes no sense to me; as I understand it, ‘on-line’ courses are set up and routed through a school’s own servers by its own ‘tech’ department. There are no ‘outside agencies’ that actually set up the course websites; the course books and related materials are the same as in a ‘regular’ class setting; the required course workload is already known and the same as in a ‘regular’ class setting; the class professor does not have to travel to the school campus to use they’re facilities or, in the case of institutions like mine with satellite campuses, travel to different rented locations to conduct a class; they can do it from their respective campus Departments office, or at home.

                And yet, they're on-line courses cost more per credit hour than the 'regular' courses where you are physically present in a classroom with a professor. In my situation, for example: from about $770.00 for one three (3) credit hour course, the cost jumps to almost $900.00 for the same course on-line. Where is the additional ‘cost’ coming from?

                “It's not that I believe online classes are inferior...”

                As far as the on-line course being inferior, I think they inherently are because you don’t have the spontaneity and give-and-take that happens when you are physically present in a classroom with a professor to moderate and guide the discussion. One on-line professor I took a class with (who holds a Ph.D.) demanded that we discuss among ourselves the week’s assignment with at least three (3) other ‘classmates’ in order to be given credit for ‘class participation’. These ‘discussions’ had to be in the form of THREE HUNDRED WORD ESSAYS...APIECE! And that’s not counting the mandatory quizzes, midterm and final exams. We may as well have ‘taught’ ourselves.

                Now...I’m not shy about writing essay’s (I’m a Paralegal by formal education and training); but essays, in and of themselves, are closed bodies of work, not a substitute for debate. Of course, the professor was ‘there’ if we ‘needed’ him but really; what’s the point? With a week in between assignments, your ‘discussion’ with the other person(s) seldom, if ever, got answered when you needed it in order for it to actually qualify as a ‘discussion’ (read-exchange of ideas) which is the central point of a ‘discussion’, especially in the field of Aeronautics as it is in my case.

                Additionally, the on-line course workload is greater than that given in a ‘regular’ classroom; as if somehow, the fact that the course is ‘on-line’ somehow ‘makes it easier’ and this ‘loophole’, as it were, has to be closed in order to ‘compensate’.

                The original intent of on-line education is that if you are in a faraway place (i.e.-military serviceman in, say, Iraq) or live in a distant location and want to continue your education with a given institution, going on-line definitely is the way to go if it is offered at the institution of your choice.

                Closer to home, the whole point of the on-line medium is it’s recognition of the fact that the professor and students cannot all meet in a given location at a given time, not an excuse to dump more material on students under the ruse of academic quality.

                The more I read about, and experience, the way on-line courses are administered and they’re questionably higher associated costs, the more I come to believe that it is/has become the new ‘racket’ in ‘higher education’.

                As of this writing, I avoid as much as possible taking on-line courses; not just for financial reasons but for scholastic ones as well as I believe they fall short in they’re present format; nor would I recommend them as a substitute for the real ‘college/university’ experience.

                There’s something to be said about actually being there ‘amongst it all’ as opposed to claiming you are there through an electronic medium.

                • 1 vote
                #8.13 - Sat Jun 4, 2011 3:37 AM EDT
                Kathy Gill

                It sounds like your experience is with a poorly designed online course. :-/

                There is an initial cost of setting up a system, but it's considerably less than building a building. Maybe your university doesn't charge a facilities fee for classrooms; that would make the class cost more on paper (but not in reality - in other words, it's how the accounting is structured).

                • 2 votes
                #8.14 - Sun Jun 5, 2011 1:46 AM EDT
                Reply
                Trying to find Work

                The real question -

                Why does NPR only get 0.6% of what Liberty University gets in taxpayer funding?

                NPR benefits people of all ages all over the country that wish to listen to music or radio theatre without commercials. Liberty university only benefits those individuals who want to go to college either on-line or in Virginia.

                • 3 votes
                Reply#9 - Wed May 25, 2011 5:40 PM EDT
                gatoralum

                NPR is a better educator than Liberty U.

                • 4 votes
                Reply#10 - Wed May 25, 2011 6:45 PM EDT
                WILDWONDERFUL

                Not by my books

                • 1 vote
                #10.1 - Wed May 25, 2011 6:55 PM EDT
                Fufu

                Every single version of NPR is a better education than Liberty University.

                Then again, an NFL locker room has more educational value than Liberty.

                • 2 votes
                #10.2 - Wed May 25, 2011 8:05 PM EDT
                Reply
                gatoralum

                If we all agreed, what a boring world this would be.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#11 - Wed May 25, 2011 7:10 PM EDT
                DisplayName0

                Kathy,

                I don't normally thank someone for reveal a steaming turd to me as you have done. This really stinks but thanks for exposing this travesty. This is really disconcerting especially when we need to find a way to stay competitive in a global economy; having good missionaries isn't a top priority. It is not something I want to invest in.

                • 4 votes
                Reply#12 - Wed May 25, 2011 9:57 PM EDT
                Fufu

                I don't normally thank someone for reveal a steaming turd to me as you have done.

                My cat seems to want to be thanked for doing that every day...

                • 4 votes
                #12.1 - Wed May 25, 2011 10:12 PM EDT
                DisplayName0

                that darn cat...

                • 3 votes
                #12.2 - Wed May 25, 2011 10:57 PM EDT
                Kathy Gill

                Thanks, DisplayName0

                • 1 vote
                #12.3 - Fri May 27, 2011 1:22 AM EDT
                Reply
                DisplayName0

                Kathy, A belated vote up. Sometimes I forget. Great fact-based article.

                • 2 votes
                Reply#13 - Fri May 27, 2011 12:02 AM EDT
                Kathy Gill

                Thanks, everyone, for staying civil! I didn't anticipate this response.

                • 1 vote
                Reply#14 - Fri May 27, 2011 1:26 AM EDT
                etva

                An excellent and well sourced article, as usual, Kathy! Thanks for posting.

                • 2 votes
                Reply#15 - Sun May 29, 2011 12:04 PM EDT
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